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	<title>Comments on: Mike McGinn Responds to Greg Nickels&#8217; Attacks on Tunnel</title>
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	<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/</link>
	<description>Transportation &#124; Education &#124; Connectivity</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 02:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-400</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-400</guid>
		<description>It is very feasible to strengthen and rebuild the existing viaduct, though when WSDOT hired their pet consulting firm T. Y. Lin, they said a remodel would cost too much and the much more expensive preferred plan WSDOT wanted would be so much better.  T.Y. Lin had over $20 million dollars in ongoing contracts with WSDOT at the time, so you can imaging they knew the answer their customer wanted to hear.

There is a local Seattle group that wants to strengthen and remodel the viaduct with a quieter roadbed, sound suppression panels at a cost below $600m.  I have an engineering background and believe the Twelker &amp; Gray structural remodel of the viaduct is quite doable.  You can bet WSDOT &amp; SDOT do NOT like that idea one bit.

So recent history.  The infamous "Viaduct Stakeholders Group" was organized, vetted and run by WSDOT, SDOT and the King County transportation departments.  I went as a public observer to several meetings.  All the members of the stakeholders group were chosen exclusively by these transportation departments.  The majority of members were "cars are evil", surface option, transit only solution partisans with just a few token "save the elevated Viaduct option" members.  Each meeting's agenda was supplied by the transportation departments and the meeting chaired usually by SDOT dept head Grace Cunician (sp?).  The effect, perhaps unintentional, was a sham PR dog and pony show that not so amazingly concluded a very expensive solution was called for - the deep bore tunnel with contractor pleasing massive new public works projects at each end of the viaduct corridor (BNSF tailtrack mitigation, Port of Seattle pork...etc).  The "cars are evil" People's Waterfront Coalition and Allied Arts boosters got what they wanted as well; a elevated Viaduct free tiny part of the Seattle Downtown waterfront.

When you walk the length of the existing Viaduct as I have you notice many important things.  The elevated Viaduct only impacts a small part of Seattle's waterfront.   It turns away from the waterfront heading up toward the Battery Street Tunnel leaving blocks and blocks of unspoiled waterfront all the way to the Bell Harbor Center, the SAM Sculpture Park further north and at least 1 1/2 miles of Myrtle Edwards Park with lovely Puget Sound water frontage.   All of this waterfront is quite devoid of people most of the time except for the occasional bike commuter continuing to Seattle from Interbay and Ballard.  We have 2+ miles of EXISTING non-viaduct downtown waterfront right now without spending a dime and yet the 10 blocks in front of only half the waterfront piers is considered worth $4.2 billion to restore !  Our waterfront is cut off from the upper city core by elevation and topography not the Viaduct.  Don't believe me, walk along all of it or look at a topo map.  This is scandalous.  The Viaduct will come down but 14 stoplights and 5 lanes of car congestion will take it's place.  My understanding is, the current configuration of the deep bore tunnel has NO downtown entrances or exits.   The "cars are evil crowd" waves their arms and proclaims the new design will substantially reconnect the Seattle street grid.  This is hogwash, just study a map for goodness sakes.  Our grid is constrained by hilly topology, Queen Ann Hill, south Lake Union, the Interlake train tracks, I-5 ...etc...etc.   Reconnecting the street grid works in flat mid-west urban centers NOT Seattle.

San Francisco's Embarcadero "Freeway" removed to open up their waterfront was NEVER A FREEWAY, it was a 1 mile long elevated on-ramp to the neighboring bay bridge.   The short elevated Embarcadero was supposed to be a piece of a much bigger 10 mile long freeway project circumnavigating downtown San Francisco, but was never completed.   Unlike our Viaduct the Embarcadero never carried substantial thru traffic.  Like I said it was just a white elephant on/off ramp to the bay bridge.  Any comparison to the Seattle Viaduct is intentionally misleading "apples to oranges" which many in the Allied Arts crowd probably know full well.  Tell a lie often enough though and soon it is taken as fact by too many parties around an issue.   Big Oil lies and so do my fellow well intentioned enviro friends.  As long as the end is justified, the means are not questioned.  Sadly Mike McGinn has a very slick video regarding the San Francisco Embarcadero which never (intentionally I fear) mentions any of the true context of this elevated roadway.  Propaganda in service to a cause we like should still be labeled as such - factually inaccurate propaganda, lest we on the progressive left become hypocrites no better than the Bush era Iraq War neo-con boosters we like to demonize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very feasible to strengthen and rebuild the existing viaduct, though when WSDOT hired their pet consulting firm T. Y. Lin, they said a remodel would cost too much and the much more expensive preferred plan WSDOT wanted would be so much better.  T.Y. Lin had over $20 million dollars in ongoing contracts with WSDOT at the time, so you can imaging they knew the answer their customer wanted to hear.</p>
<p>There is a local Seattle group that wants to strengthen and remodel the viaduct with a quieter roadbed, sound suppression panels at a cost below $600m.  I have an engineering background and believe the Twelker &amp; Gray structural remodel of the viaduct is quite doable.  You can bet WSDOT &amp; SDOT do NOT like that idea one bit.</p>
<p>So recent history.  The infamous &#8220;Viaduct Stakeholders Group&#8221; was organized, vetted and run by WSDOT, SDOT and the King County transportation departments.  I went as a public observer to several meetings.  All the members of the stakeholders group were chosen exclusively by these transportation departments.  The majority of members were &#8220;cars are evil&#8221;, surface option, transit only solution partisans with just a few token &#8220;save the elevated Viaduct option&#8221; members.  Each meeting&#8217;s agenda was supplied by the transportation departments and the meeting chaired usually by SDOT dept head Grace Cunician (sp?).  The effect, perhaps unintentional, was a sham PR dog and pony show that not so amazingly concluded a very expensive solution was called for - the deep bore tunnel with contractor pleasing massive new public works projects at each end of the viaduct corridor (BNSF tailtrack mitigation, Port of Seattle pork&#8230;etc).  The &#8220;cars are evil&#8221; People&#8217;s Waterfront Coalition and Allied Arts boosters got what they wanted as well; a elevated Viaduct free tiny part of the Seattle Downtown waterfront.</p>
<p>When you walk the length of the existing Viaduct as I have you notice many important things.  The elevated Viaduct only impacts a small part of Seattle&#8217;s waterfront.   It turns away from the waterfront heading up toward the Battery Street Tunnel leaving blocks and blocks of unspoiled waterfront all the way to the Bell Harbor Center, the SAM Sculpture Park further north and at least 1 1/2 miles of Myrtle Edwards Park with lovely Puget Sound water frontage.   All of this waterfront is quite devoid of people most of the time except for the occasional bike commuter continuing to Seattle from Interbay and Ballard.  We have 2+ miles of EXISTING non-viaduct downtown waterfront right now without spending a dime and yet the 10 blocks in front of only half the waterfront piers is considered worth $4.2 billion to restore !  Our waterfront is cut off from the upper city core by elevation and topography not the Viaduct.  Don&#8217;t believe me, walk along all of it or look at a topo map.  This is scandalous.  The Viaduct will come down but 14 stoplights and 5 lanes of car congestion will take it&#8217;s place.  My understanding is, the current configuration of the deep bore tunnel has NO downtown entrances or exits.   The &#8220;cars are evil crowd&#8221; waves their arms and proclaims the new design will substantially reconnect the Seattle street grid.  This is hogwash, just study a map for goodness sakes.  Our grid is constrained by hilly topology, Queen Ann Hill, south Lake Union, the Interlake train tracks, I-5 &#8230;etc&#8230;etc.   Reconnecting the street grid works in flat mid-west urban centers NOT Seattle.</p>
<p>San Francisco&#8217;s Embarcadero &#8220;Freeway&#8221; removed to open up their waterfront was NEVER A FREEWAY, it was a 1 mile long elevated on-ramp to the neighboring bay bridge.   The short elevated Embarcadero was supposed to be a piece of a much bigger 10 mile long freeway project circumnavigating downtown San Francisco, but was never completed.   Unlike our Viaduct the Embarcadero never carried substantial thru traffic.  Like I said it was just a white elephant on/off ramp to the bay bridge.  Any comparison to the Seattle Viaduct is intentionally misleading &#8220;apples to oranges&#8221; which many in the Allied Arts crowd probably know full well.  Tell a lie often enough though and soon it is taken as fact by too many parties around an issue.   Big Oil lies and so do my fellow well intentioned enviro friends.  As long as the end is justified, the means are not questioned.  Sadly Mike McGinn has a very slick video regarding the San Francisco Embarcadero which never (intentionally I fear) mentions any of the true context of this elevated roadway.  Propaganda in service to a cause we like should still be labeled as such - factually inaccurate propaganda, lest we on the progressive left become hypocrites no better than the Bush era Iraq War neo-con boosters we like to demonize.</p>
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		<title>By: Dura</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>Dura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-214</guid>
		<description>Early on the rebuilding of the Viaduct "as is" was DISMISSED. Perhaps I do not understand well enough what the VISION for the waterfront is, but to me making a large park there is not ideal.  We have economic funding problems with park maintenance as well as parks attract the homeless and or drug users.  All the property values along the route will increase at Taxpayers expense.  

With new technologies why can't we rebuild the Viaduct to look more appealing and be done with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Early on the rebuilding of the Viaduct &#8220;as is&#8221; was DISMISSED. Perhaps I do not understand well enough what the VISION for the waterfront is, but to me making a large park there is not ideal.  We have economic funding problems with park maintenance as well as parks attract the homeless and or drug users.  All the property values along the route will increase at Taxpayers expense.  </p>
<p>With new technologies why can&#8217;t we rebuild the Viaduct to look more appealing and be done with it?</p>
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		<title>By: concerned guy</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>concerned guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 04:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-168</guid>
		<description>McGinn may be closer to how the future will unfold in terms of the heavier emphasis on mass transit.  Bottom line, all bids on the tunnel should have a "no cost overrun, no delay" clause.  If the procedure is good, costs should be either at or under the bid.  If not, cancel the tunnel and go to an alternative of old methods w/ reduced costs and better predictability.   With the trend toward cost overruns in large projects, the actual cost would be way over $5 billion and numerous delays.  Without a ceiling on costs, let McGinn approach it from a most simpler method.  The tunnel would be a solution, but the costs will affect the average person adversely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McGinn may be closer to how the future will unfold in terms of the heavier emphasis on mass transit.  Bottom line, all bids on the tunnel should have a &#8220;no cost overrun, no delay&#8221; clause.  If the procedure is good, costs should be either at or under the bid.  If not, cancel the tunnel and go to an alternative of old methods w/ reduced costs and better predictability.   With the trend toward cost overruns in large projects, the actual cost would be way over $5 billion and numerous delays.  Without a ceiling on costs, let McGinn approach it from a most simpler method.  The tunnel would be a solution, but the costs will affect the average person adversely.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Campbell</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 00:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-158</guid>
		<description>I think you are off. The viaduct is what keeps the waterfront accessible to everyone. The viaduct allows 100,000+ people experience the waterfront every day. Who owns all the buildings behind the viaduct? The sponsors of the tunnel bill. Just like Paul Allen owns Belltown Selig and three other developers will own the waterfront. Almost completely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are off. The viaduct is what keeps the waterfront accessible to everyone. The viaduct allows 100,000+ people experience the waterfront every day. Who owns all the buildings behind the viaduct? The sponsors of the tunnel bill. Just like Paul Allen owns Belltown Selig and three other developers will own the waterfront. Almost completely.</p>
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		<title>By: tunnel advocate</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>tunnel advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-130</guid>
		<description>The tunnel is not being developed for cars.   The tunnel is being developed to beautify Seattle's waterfront while maintaining freight mobility for the port while preserving a crucial artery.  Have you been to Portland, Vancouver, or San Francisco lately and seen their downtowns and waterfronts?  We compete against these and other cities for talent, which in turn creates jobs.  Talented young people are moving to cities for their attractiveness and quality of life.  We absolutely need to make the most of our waterfront asset while preserving freight mobility for the port and not further increase the traffic strain on I-5 as it runs through the city.  If you or McGinn have a good alternate solution, we would love to hear it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tunnel is not being developed for cars.   The tunnel is being developed to beautify Seattle&#8217;s waterfront while maintaining freight mobility for the port while preserving a crucial artery.  Have you been to Portland, Vancouver, or San Francisco lately and seen their downtowns and waterfronts?  We compete against these and other cities for talent, which in turn creates jobs.  Talented young people are moving to cities for their attractiveness and quality of life.  We absolutely need to make the most of our waterfront asset while preserving freight mobility for the port and not further increase the traffic strain on I-5 as it runs through the city.  If you or McGinn have a good alternate solution, we would love to hear it.</p>
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		<title>By: tunnel advocate</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>tunnel advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-129</guid>
		<description>I don't think the tax increase, which is being misrepresented, has anything to do with McGinn's opposition to the tunnel.  His record has shown that he is idealogically opposed to any investment in transportation that is not exclusively dedicated to mass transit.  Unfortunately, the tunnel is not about making Seattle a better place for cars but rather to build on Seattle's two greatest assets which are (a) that it is one of the few cities in the world with a (potentially) attractive downtown waterfront and (2) that it is the closest port to Asia in the US.  The tunnel will beautify our waterfront while ensuring freight mobility for the port.  If McGinn has an alternative that can do both of these things, we need to hear it, soon, and in detail.  If not, he will be doing great damage to our city for his own peculiar Sierra Club dogma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the tax increase, which is being misrepresented, has anything to do with McGinn&#8217;s opposition to the tunnel.  His record has shown that he is idealogically opposed to any investment in transportation that is not exclusively dedicated to mass transit.  Unfortunately, the tunnel is not about making Seattle a better place for cars but rather to build on Seattle&#8217;s two greatest assets which are (a) that it is one of the few cities in the world with a (potentially) attractive downtown waterfront and (2) that it is the closest port to Asia in the US.  The tunnel will beautify our waterfront while ensuring freight mobility for the port.  If McGinn has an alternative that can do both of these things, we need to hear it, soon, and in detail.  If not, he will be doing great damage to our city for his own peculiar Sierra Club dogma.</p>
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		<title>By: Pietro Potesta</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>Pietro Potesta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-113</guid>
		<description>I disagree. A comprehensive strategy to move people and goods (in the city as well as in the region), even one that wants to rely heavily on public transportation, would see plenty of benefits in the tunnel option. 1. the tunnel serves an immensely important need for thru traffic (which keeps Seattle in the center's of the regions commercial N-S corridor); 2. the tunnel feeds important components of the waterfront (port, ferry docks), keepint it alive; 3. a tunnel option offer potential (alas not in the current WS-DOT design) for much more compact surface imporvements that would benefit a more livable-walkable and enjoyable waterfront environment (ah, also conducive to more public transportation oriented efforts).
The viaduct replacement is a one in a century opportunity to rethink-revisit the entire downtown connection to its waterfront, providing development and opportunities as well as potential open spaces for a grown-up city. Cost, in comparison, is a poor way to measure it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree. A comprehensive strategy to move people and goods (in the city as well as in the region), even one that wants to rely heavily on public transportation, would see plenty of benefits in the tunnel option. 1. the tunnel serves an immensely important need for thru traffic (which keeps Seattle in the center&#8217;s of the regions commercial N-S corridor); 2. the tunnel feeds important components of the waterfront (port, ferry docks), keepint it alive; 3. a tunnel option offer potential (alas not in the current WS-DOT design) for much more compact surface imporvements that would benefit a more livable-walkable and enjoyable waterfront environment (ah, also conducive to more public transportation oriented efforts).<br />
The viaduct replacement is a one in a century opportunity to rethink-revisit the entire downtown connection to its waterfront, providing development and opportunities as well as potential open spaces for a grown-up city. Cost, in comparison, is a poor way to measure it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy J</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-107</guid>
		<description>This man doesn't have an alternative... I wish people would figure that out... He just has a "No" and is doesn't have anything planned that would work for everyone... Just sayin?!? Hopefully, he can prove me wrong... This mayoral race is going to turn into picking someone that can do the least damage...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This man doesn&#8217;t have an alternative&#8230; I wish people would figure that out&#8230; He just has a &#8220;No&#8221; and is doesn&#8217;t have anything planned that would work for everyone&#8230; Just sayin?!? Hopefully, he can prove me wrong&#8230; This mayoral race is going to turn into picking someone that can do the least damage&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: concerned seattleite</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>concerned seattleite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Just like most people in Seattle, I think the tunnel is going to be too expensive. However, I haven't seen what these "new and better alternatives" are. Show us some maps with proposed solutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just like most people in Seattle, I think the tunnel is going to be too expensive. However, I haven&#8217;t seen what these &#8220;new and better alternatives&#8221; are. Show us some maps with proposed solutions.</p>
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		<title>By: J Lopez</title>
		<link>http://mcginnformayor.com/2009/08/mike-mcginn-responds-to-greg-nickels-attacks-on-tunnel/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>J Lopez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 00:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mcginnformayor.com/?p=787#comment-63</guid>
		<description>The main problem is that Nickels has an arrogance problem and delusion. He forgot what is to be  in touch with the reality. Is the disease that many politicians get in their second or third term.  In this moments of economic uncertainty it is to keep it simply and solve the problems easy and fast for the main benefit of the population. Some examples of arrogance it is the final decision to built two stadiums to create more havoc downtown for the  benefit of the elite of team owners and those that do not care to spend a lot of money in tickets.
Ce finni</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main problem is that Nickels has an arrogance problem and delusion. He forgot what is to be  in touch with the reality. Is the disease that many politicians get in their second or third term.  In this moments of economic uncertainty it is to keep it simply and solve the problems easy and fast for the main benefit of the population. Some examples of arrogance it is the final decision to built two stadiums to create more havoc downtown for the  benefit of the elite of team owners and those that do not care to spend a lot of money in tickets.<br />
Ce finni</p>
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